A Conversation on Chivalry

Opening Speaker: Chivalry is over rated and convenient.

Participant 1: For whom is it convenient? Chivalry is a choice. The choice to do the right things, for the right reasons, at the right times. If not, then it’s not chivalry; it’s probably a superficial act to impress!

OS: To not practice it is also a choice. The choice to believe in equality. Chivalry isn’t right. The choice to like or hate it is right.

P1: What else does choice mean, OS? Obviously, it’s one’s choice not to practice it or otherwise.
Btw, i really would like to know if YOU believe in the very concept of being chivalrous?

OS: You used the word ‘right’ so many times with regards to things or reasons. Anyway I don’t believe in chivalry 🙂

Participant 2: I don’t get chivalry, we should be respectful and mindful of everyone. I mean if some guy bumps into u we say sala BC… its just not nice… lets just have good manners and leave chivalry to the Downtown Abbey guys

OS: Chivalry should not be confused with courtesy. Yes we should respect and be mindful of everyone we interact with but I don’t think it’s fair to go beyond our means or way for someone especially if external factors aren’t compromising safety.

P2: yea m not ruining my jacket so someone shouldnt step over a puddle… side se jao 😛

Participant 3: Weird. Being as chivalrous as possible is my high. I wish the whole world, both men and women, would be more chivalrous. As long as you protect those weaker than you, in kindness and not out of some weird sense of duty, chivalry is what you are practicing. It’s about courage and honor, courtesy and justice. It isn’t something you can or cannot believe in. It is something that either comes naturally to you, you aspire towards, or you avoid. I think it’s noble.
And it’s anything but convenient. lol.

OS: P3, Thank you for that. As far as courtesy, courage and justice are concerned I agree. However, I do feel the modern interpretation of it is sometimes unfair. I think I practice chivalry in the traditional sense but i’d rather avoid it’s modern interpretation. If equality exists among two individuals I fail to understand why one of them is ‘duty bound’ or expected to be taking care of the other person especially when external factors like safety etc aren’t a concern. I’d rather have equality in my personal equations and I really wouldn’t want to be a guardian to someone who clearly doesn’t need it.

P3: In life, everyone is going to be weaker or stronger than you at some level. It depends on what level your interaction is happening, I believe. Of course its application (chivalry’s i.e.) would be different today than at the time of its inception, but that’s because the social set up at the time of origin was a violent and dangerous one, where knights were one of the strongest and women, amongst the weakest. But today, this is not necessarily true. Yes, if it’s late at night, and you’re in India, you are at a position of strength compared to any female friends you might have with you and chivalry might be expected of you, only on the basis of your being male, but to assume that is the be all and end all of chivalry is wrong. There may be times when you come across a lost child, or an injured dog or even a male colleague who is utterly lost. Or when you’re dealing with the help, or a waiter at a restaurant, or a confused elderly gentleman on the subway. 

I think Chivalry, in fact, is all about strength. If you know you are stronger than those around you, then as long as you do everything in your power to protect them, without expecting rewards or favors in return, you are being chivalrous. Those that say that it’s unfair because women always receive the benefit are buying into the notion that a woman is always weaker than a man, regardless of surroundings or circumstance, and as dismaying as it may be, the solution is not to shun chivalry, but to practice it properly, so that even those who denounce it come to receive its favors, and more importantly, because that is the burden of humanity on its path to civilization.

OS: *sips on water*…Okay!
I have a problem with it due to it’s very gendered connotations. Now, I’m not going to get into specifics of what I do which actually does resonate with your comment. However I wouldn’t compromise on equality specifically when the circumstances do not put me in a position of strength. ..courtesy would mean opening the door for someone regardless of their gender or vacating a seat for someone who clearly looks tired, with a child .. paying the bill, again without bringing gender into the equation, because I might absolutely adore the person, maybe in a position of more financial strength However I wouldn’t want to pay for someone just because according to gender stereotypes, I am supposed to or rush to open the car door for someone perfectly healthy because I’m supposed to. Assuming there is no position of strength involved in a particular situation, I do not believe in doing something just because that is what some gentleman did for his lady at the next table. In other words, I’d rather not be a position of strength and I’d love to be with someone who’s independent and doesn’t need me to pull off stupid stunts to amuse her yet if there’s ever a situation where I find myself in a position of strength, my belief system, how so ever flawed, will be doing everything that’s expected out of a decent human being.

P3: Yeah, so it is all about your own perception of your own strengths and weaknesses, as well as those of the people you are with. I frequently open doors for people I am with, male or female, because if I can do something that makes life easier for the person I am with, and it costs me less than nothing to do it, then why not? Does it mean I consider myself stronger than them in some way? Why, yes, it does. Often it does anyway. And for the few times where I am certain that I am at a disadvantaged position in terms of strength or capability, then what better opportunity to repay them for the chivalry I believe their advantageous position will inspire them to than by doing something as simple as opening a door, or fetching a glass of water, etc..

To All my Atheist friends..

Ummm. Agnostic here. *laughs uncomfortably* I really sincerely believe that praying to a maybe existing supernatural being constantly is quite ridiculous, especially in the absence of any concrete evidence of his/her existence whatsoever.. But I also don’t think that we have enough proof to stand up and say we’ve figured everything out. There’s a lot of stuff out there that science cannot *yet* explain. And, yes, they could all be waves and radiation and forces we have not discovered, I’m totally down with that. Just as I wouldn’t be surprised to learn we are all living in a simulated world. Or that aliens are observing us.

I guess, what I’m trying to say is.. We know nothing, A.S.

Also, I dunno. There are hardworking people, and then there’s luck. I won’t go so far as to invoke fate. It does make me mighty uncomfortable, right up there with destiny. But, sometimes hard work doesn’t pay, yo. And, sometimes, random things do. And, sometimes, when life is balancing itself out, the good you do comes back to you, just as the bad you do does. And, of course good things happen to bad people, and bad things happen to good. But, that’s as much proof for God not existing, as good things happening to good people and bad things happening to bad people is proof for the existence of God!

Nothing sucks more than organized religion. But, simply because it deceives people into thinking that acting in a certain way to appease a certain deity is the way to get eternal salvation/liberation.

Life, as humans understand it, is a matter of a handful of years. For millions of billions of years before we were born, we existed as space dust and star dust, and for millions and billions of years after we die, that atomic form is what we shall all be scattered into. Who are we to say what consciousness is to an atom? Or whether it’s fair to call that non-life? And, what if in atomic form, every Star is your God? Or what if we are given these 70-100 years to learn how to be good atoms? Or, well, anything really! What proof do we have of *everything*?

We know what we know, and what we know is very little.

The Last of the Anti-Orange Rant [Or why you will never convert me, Modi-ites!]

The problem is this, S. The reasons why we don’t support Modi have been listed out a hundred times above. As others have mentioned, your scary blind devotion to the man is disappointing and frightening.  What we will get into is this: A lot of Muslims were horribly tortured, and died, under his reign. When you […]

Pro-Modi v Anti-Modi: Facebook Debate Excerpts

July 2013 1. The development claimed by Modi in Gujarat is a bunch of lies, as independent reports by Human Rights organizations, both international and Non-governmental have already proved. 2. Modi rides on the fanaticism of his Hindutva fan-boys and fan-girls. No one here is claiming that he wakes up and does the surya namaskar […]

Justice for all? Words are wind..

So, today, one of my friends posted an article on my wall. It was called …And Justice for all. Some excerpts of the same are as follows:

Guilt is premised on an individual being conscious of his actions and of its possible repercussions when he commits the act. So the individual ‘knows’ that he doesn’t have any right to harm a fellow human, yet in a moment of weakness, does it. Would that moment/those moments define the entire personality of the individual?

Should taking someone’s life — reducing someone to a state of nothingness, after following constitutional due process — to further law’s ends, find a place in twenty-first century lawbook then?

Should there be a component of retribution at all? Who stands to benefit from this? In retaliation against one act of madness, perhaps a few moments, does anyone have authority to take someone’s life?

Can’t there be a better way of accommodating the person in society, the one labeled criminal by law?

Perhaps there can be. The perpetrator can be turned into an asset for the society. This can happen only when the law attributes criminality not to the individual as such, but to a criminal component in him. It would follow that once ‘that component’ is removed, the individual can be of benefit to the society.

Reaction:

Hmm… I don’t think my heart is big enough. But, this is why I would prefer to stay separate from the system. I think this article makes a lot of sound, valid points… but when someone crosses a line with me, they are as good as dead. To me. And, we’re talking silly lines here. If someone were to hurt or kill someone I cared about, the only reason I would pray that the Courts let them go is so that I can kill them myself.

It’s like Sanzo says, when you first kill someone, you undertake the probability of being killed yourself.

Also, this article speaks of crimes done in moments of weakness. For which, most legal systems have adequate defenses in the form of grave and sudden provocation, and the like.

Further, there’s nothing forgivable about stalking a 4 year old child, then raping and murdering her. In that case, the victim is chosen because the perpetrators know that she can’t fight back. It is our duty to her, as well as to all surviving innocents everywhere, that people who commit such heinous crimes are not just punished for it, but utterly removed from society [whether through Death, or exile to space, or as human experiments (though that probably won’t end well) is all a matter of debate] 

Point being, it isn’t just about the criminal or the victim’s family. It’s about the victim, and all other potential ones. And the fact that if you can’t protect a child’s life, you better be prepared to avenge it, otherwise what use is our existence? It means less than nothing.

The Indian Ban on Porn: Playing the Devil’s Advocate

Note: The govt./executive is the Devil for the purposes of this post.

Guys, we belong to a culture where rape is alright because, for most men in this country, the consent of a woman is an alien idea. Even marriage is like, “beta, be an ass, if you please. We’ll find you a girl to fuck. Come let us go their house and drink the tea she has made. That way you can check out how “sweet” her cooking is, as well as her body.” 
So, today, these men waiting for mommy and daddy to find them a fuck-girl aka wife, cannot comprehend the sexual autonomy women seem to be painstakingly working towards. 
Why?
> Because they know that, with the kind of jackasses they have become, no girl in their right mind would want to sleep with them. And this is the pathetic fear that makes them desperate to rape. They see women on the street, and if she’s with a guy, the automatic insecure, deprived notion that pops into their head is, “If she can sleep with him, why not me?”

Why is this relevant to this discussion? 
> I have a blog. Said blog has this cool feature relating to stats, and this includes a list of the search terms that people have used to reach my blog. Because I write about all these things, there’s a lot of “rape” and “sexual assault” tags. The kind of stuff I read on that list, i.e. the kind of stuff people are searching for, sometimes just makes me want to be sick.
>>>
Don’t get me wrong. I am totally pro-porn. But I’m not pro getting off on the pain of real victims.

What does this have to do with anything?
>> I’m not sure if, as a nation, we can differentiate between reality and fiction. And, in countries that don’t have such a problem, having a fantasy about raping your neighbor after seeing a porn clip about it stays just that: a fantasy. But, in incredible India, it’s just about waiting until said neighbor has a blackout, just like in the porn video.

What am I trying to say?
> As a nation, we don’t deserve porn. But, then again, we probably don’t even deserve to govern ourselves. Which we have time and again proved, historically, and at every turning point, instead of moving towards a society that respects its members, we have chosen to go the other way. Instead of demanding our rights, we have simply watched them go floating by to their ICU rooms, partially because there were too many of us dying for food, and partially because the handful of educated Indians wanted to do nothing but get out.

Conclusion
The Indian government is supremely ineffective. Nevertheless, as Nietzsche would agree, let them fuck up. Let them fuck up, and let us fight them, and then let them do worse things, terrible things. And let us keep fighting back.
Why?
>Because that is the only way society improves, and our’s is in desperate need of improvement. And this dialogue must be made part of the battle (i.e. on the link between porn and rape, because only such a discussion in the open media will get the point out and across that these guys are usually actors, and there’s a LOT of fucking consent involved.)

~~~

Bottomline: The freedom of our people is of supreme importance, but nothing is more important than protecting our children. And we are failing. We have failed. Let them ban what they like. We’ll find our own ways. And, maybe, maybe the guy stalking some minor girl because she’s pretty (-_-) will next time be forced to pay attention to something else when he goes online, when the search results of “rape stories” and what not show not imitable ideas of sexual violence, but simply an account of how every rapist was beaten up by his society, and the jail term he has served.

PoA: Obviously let it be known that this is wrong, and it shouldn’t be done. But, keeping in mind that the class that has just stopped struggling to survive does not have the cultural license in this nation to form meaningful relationships (or any relationships, for that matter) with the opposite gender, and has literally turned to porn, and subsequently rape, as entertainment.

Because that’s the one thing Indian society has in common with violent, exploitative pornographic content: A serious lack of consequence.

Why belonging to Delhi should not be a Source of Pride

Note: It’s not like I loathe Delhi. Well, okay, I do sort of loathe Delhi, but the tone of this article, it’s only a rant. An angry rant that’s been bubbling inside me for years and years, after every 3 months that I spent in Delhi, annually. The City has its moments, I’m sure it does. But, when all of its people love it so very much, and express it so intensely, I can’t help but take the extreme opposite stance. I am the Devil’s advocate. Hypocritical, in that she only extremely pursues ideas she already believes in, but, give her an underdog in need of defending, and no one can ever go to more extreme or dramatic lengths. umm. It’s a flaw. So, anyway, no offence meant, Delhiites, except where it’s obvious. Yeah. You guys need to fix that.

I don’t like Delhi. It’s hostile and fake and the people who’ve lived there all their lives are so proud of the fact, it’s a mix of little-scary and very disgusting.

But, by all means, yay for the chaat and aalu parathas and all the monuments built a thousand years ago that smoke and pollution and people have determinedly destroyed! Love that culture, if you must, but let no one take pride in this city within a month of what happened.

If you all recall, the girl was lying, bleeding, on the side of the road for nearly two hours while people drove by, gawking and staring in that horrid way that people from that city believe they are automatically entitled to simply because they have eyes. The DELHI police refused to help her into the PCR van, and her injured naked friend had to do it instead, because the police didn’t want blood on their uniforms.

I mean, seriously, what is everyone from this city so proud of? The roads??

Well, I’m talking about the people! The undeniable truth! We’ve been to places all over this country! The kind of hostility that the Delhi gaze has, no other city in this nation compares. It isn’t about “a few rotten apples” or a “few stray incidents”. When we’re all being proud of things, isn’t it important to know just what we’re being so proud of? And, maybe we’re all being proud of the wrong things.

It’s a possibility, don’t you think? Just like the possibility that Delhi is actually a lovely, friendly, forgiving city that doesn’t worship clique mentalities and money and actually cares about each other on the street (to even a tiny amount over giving a fuck), and most importantly, is open to people who don’t fit in any of the ideas that the city has of the people who’re supposed to inhabit it. Or however the fuck that works. *shrugs* 

My point is, what I *loathe* about Delhi is just how proud people are for having lived in a territory for the longest time, about things that they have no control over. And how it changes everyone who *ever* lives there. It’s akin to being forced into a box, and if you resist, the City will cheerfully cut off whichever limb is in the way of fitting you in that box, and the people will cheer by the sidelines. That’s what I hate.

And, yes, I am not proud of India for the absence of the Rule of Law, I’m ashamed of how far the educated citizens of this state have allowed the Nation to fall as long as their immediate rights were protected, I’m disgusted by the kind of mentality that seems to be prevalent along the majority of its citizens. I’m horribly apologetic and deeply disturbed by the communal riots, and the State sanctioned anti-sikh riots of 1984. I’m saddened to think of the fact that while thousands died of hunger, food lay rotting in and around our godowns, bound by bureaucratic red-tape and feeding only rats. I’m offended by the reality of people from MY country pausing in the middle of slaughter to ask their victims what religion they belonged to. I’m ashamed of the way we treat our minorities, and the simultaneous pride we seem to take in our “diversity”.

But, I’m proud of the fact that we made a killer constitution that has actually held this fragmented sub-continent together! I’m proud of the leaders that sat together and conducted their constitutional debates wherein they laboriously went over every word, every concept, in order to ensure that their intentions could never be misunderstood! I’m proud of the fellow Indian who gave a jacket to the Tribal girl who was stripped naked and beaten up by other fellow citizens of ours, despite being turned on by the angry mob for doing so. I’m proud of every dead whistle-blower that our State could not protect, and I’m proud of the two authors who went ahead and read out portions of Salman Rushdie’s book despite fearing for their lives. I’m proud of the logic behind the colors on our flag, and the nice people of Delhi who give jackets to stray dogs on the Street in Winter. And, I’m proud to have access to first World opportunities despite living in a clearly third-world country. And, I’m proud of the changes my college, and people from my college (also Indians) are making in the World. I’m proud of the unrelenting activists, and the people fighting corruption, and all the outrage that this incident brought forth from the public.

But, until, as a people, we can feel ashamed of the things “our people” are capable of, things will never change. And, as long as we keep defending entire systems as a whole, on some level we’re legitimizing the wrong things that do happen. Especially when it comes to attitudes and mentalities.

I mean, be proud, na. Love it! Like it’s said, Everywhere you go, there’s lots to love and hate. But, the things that bother me about Delhi, they sicken and frighten me to my core. So, please understand if I can’t just sit down and swallow it when someone tells me how Delhi is a fabulous city, or how proud they are to belong from there.

Just voicing my polite dissent.

The Importance of Aaron Swartz: The perspective of a layman

The SOPA – PIPA bill was not about piracy, but about control. As was ACTA. This short video puts across the difference between physical stealing and using ‘Intellectual Property’ quite nicely:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmQN93NqqDM. ‘SOPA itself was worded in a way that would send you “to prison for 5 years for uploading a Michael Jackson song to Youtube. That’s one more year jail than the doctor who killed him!!!” This is what Zuckerberg has to say about SOPA/PIPA: http://readwrite.com/2012/01/18/mark_zuckerbergs_not-so-surprising_view_on_sopapip

The whole thing about Aaron Swartz is that he was a long-respected genius in circles that have been fighting such instances of legislation that threaten to impede upon rights that the govt has no right impeding upon. The problem is that the MPAA, and the RIAA have enough money to “buy” whichever ‘representative’ they want to, and the entire copyright industry in America is full of these ex-Policymakers who now conveniently work as Directors or the like in these companies. 

Between our paranoid governments and greedy corporations, it is these mutually supported ideas of censorship and copyright that meet and threaten to punish citizens for literally victim-less crimes in a manner that shows nothing but the intent to control a population, and what they ‘dare say to each other’ over the internet.

The changes that the US govt. has tried to bring about with SOPA and PIPA, their underhanded threatening letters to different countries across the World telling them to enforce similar legislative standards when it comes to copyright, the relentless persecution of both children and grandmothers by the great RIAA, the unimaginable “losses” and “damages” often claimed by these agencies, the sneaking in of similar provisions along with anti-pornography laws, and their outdated, cheap, easily broken, completely *ineffective* technological measures used to ‘protect’ copyright – this is why people are angry that Aaron had to go off himself. Because, believe me, he was one of the good guys. A very intelligent and smart good guy, whose loss will definitely be felt as this War is carried forward.

This is very important. Yes, the issue is a whole lot more complex.. But, while it’s true that democracy is meant to guard against these wrongs, and third-party mediators can play a huge role in maintaining standards, the current publishing houses, and recording agencies, these are all archaic third-parties that once had an important role to play in information dissemination, got really rich and powerful doing it, and now cannot accept the fact that we’ve reached an age where they are more or less obsolete. Knowing this, and having a lot of money, these corporations are then using their resources to convince the government to hold back the inevitable technological advance that the internet has been bringing to the World since its advent.


But, that’s the general problem with our copyright laws today. However, it’s relevant in this instance, because what is protested against is the unfair bargaining position of the middlemen, and the damage this is doing to both the public as well as the authors. As you said, it seems like the assumption made is that all authors are willing/eager to have their content circulated. Well, in most cases, isn’t that a fair assumption? And, in cases where that isn’t true, wouldn’t it be better if the author had more direct control over who could and could not access that content? 

At one point of time, this was as inconvenient as it was impossible. Very. But processes which took months and months, now take place in minutes. These industries must evolve, or perish. But, the problem is that civil society must force this change upon the said corporations. The case of Grooveshark would be one such example of an external shove. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grooveshark> On the other hand, in the world of gaming, an internal initiative can be seen with the Valve Corporation, who’ve been making games and distributing them since 1996, and who launched their social distribution network Steam, allowing users access to an insane number of games, with offers ranging from free-to-play to holiday discounts and games from new-developers that you can give them direct feedback on. 

I’m not very sure how much differently things work when it comes to Scientific and Cultural content, but, when music and games make so much of a difference, and it’s only because their users are more likely to engage in civil disobedience, isn’t it unfair to assume that the existing state of affairs, when it comes to academic content, is okay simply because the vast majority of the world appears to be okay with it? When the truth is that it is blissfully unaware, would like to remain so, and the only people who may have a problem (Students of Universities) are given access to these worlds to keep us feeling privileged, and some highly intelligent people outside the system who can see it for what it is.

A better system will come into place. But, as it stands, it is unfair. And it is most benefiting people who have no right to be so benefited. At everybody’s cost. Information is Power, and if we want to live in a World that is even slightly equal, slightly fair, then this imbalance must not be tolerated.

When the World changes, I think everyone has their own role to play. And each move forces someone else’s hand. There are academicians and scientists already arguing for change from the inside, and there are surely parts of the government resisting this effort by the corporations, and there is Anonymous, dispensing vigilante justice and drawing society’s attention to both the dangers of a Free internet and those of a closed one (and the corresponding realization that the latter is usually worse). Aaron Swartz had his own role to play. And, it’s a damn shame that he killed himself, but he did it all in the name of something bigger than himself. 

The Zapista movement in Mexico (which is really interesting) has a slogan that comes to my mind: “For everyone, everything, for us, nothing.” 

Aaron Swartz didn’t get anything for his efforts, and his efforts were made in the name of information. Access to information. That’s sort of noble, isn’t it?

Here’s a link to his manifesto:

http://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamjuly2008_djvu.txt.

Requiescat in pace, brother.

~ May the Rage be Relentless ~

Public Debate: What to do with the Rapers, and can men empathize with women?

Parties to this discussion:

Enraged Citizen: Final Year Law Student in the role of an enraged citizen of the Indian State.

Vengeful Sympathetic Male : Wants the strictest punishment for all rapists.

Angry College Girl: Men cannot empathize with women.

Lawful Citizen: Fears for safety, and is upset with the rampant abuse of law

Legally Bound: Believes the rule of law must prevail.

Virtual Protester: Bordering on Anarchy

(OP) Enraged Citizen: She said she wanted to live. I hate you All. I hate us All. I hope this country burns to the ground now. You can kill each other in the name of religion. Now fucking do it for her. And, Legally Bound, don’t talk to me about responsibility or rebuilding or fixing anything. As a nation, we don’t deserve to exist, you know that? Yes, it is spectacular that India has managed to exist as a democracy, the World’s largest democracy. The world’s largest farce, you mean. We should stop pretending. We don’t deserve any better. Fuck Joker, man, I wish I was Ra’s Al Ghul right now. You know why? Because there is no Batman, and she’s dead, and that 17 year old is dead, and a thousand more will be soon, and it’s all our fault.

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: see now u are talking my language …. get pissed off, get angry , there has to be blood

Enraged Citizen: And, Blood there shall be. I swear it.

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: shit keepin u up all night?

Enraged Citizen: I wouldn’t dare sleep now.

Lawful Citizen: I sincerely hope that justice is done and that now the highest possible punishment that is the death penalty be given to all the rapists involved! May her soul rest in peace and god give courage and peace to victim’s family members!

Vengeful Sympathetic Male:  death penalty is lenient i wanna do the hostel scene with the fuckers, shoud first sodomise them with a hot poker then give them the old pullin out the digits then comes the eye poking out etc etc. she lived for like 10 days after her experience they shouldnt die quick

  • Enraged Citizen: God’s a kid with an ant farm. If he couldn’t stop them from raping her, he sure as hell is not going to go about dispensing courage and peace. And, how can Justice be done? You tell me, Lawful_Citizen. What in the World can you possibly do in this case to ensure that justice is done? And, is there anything anyone can do to bring her back? And, what about her friend. he’s gonna be fucking traumatized for the rest of his life. And, can’t you see, it’s not just them that killed her?? People have been dying in such horrific ways for years, and if we had had the courage or the concern to start talking about these things a little earlier, maybe it wouldn’t haev even come to this.
  • So, you see, you and I killed her, Lawful_Citizen. What punishment do we deserve now?

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: i wanna go through the horrible experience of watching them get mutilated

Enraged Citizen: not even the most brutal torture can bring her back. Not the most painful punishment is gonna make her boyfriend or her family feel any better. Torturing them, that’s just selfish, and it’s more attention than they deserve. They should just be exiled to outer space. Or the Desert. They’re not even worth killing. And, they’re not the problem. God, I just can’t get over the fact that for 10 days, she’s been fighting this, and she told all of us that she wanted to live. And we couldn’t do anything.

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: we suck!!!!!

Lawful Citizen: Enraged Citizen, we cannot be fatalistic or philosophical about this whole deplorable incident and my point is that something urgently needs to be done to restore some sense of order and that something begins with punishing the perpetrators of this heinous act..I am not saying or implying that it would be adequate or that it would bring back the victim but it would be something close to justice, however far actually it might be from it…society needs to know that such heinous and sordid incidents will not be tolerated by us as a whole!

Angry Young Lady: Not until 6 men rape one man will the men in this country learn a lesson. Let them fear their lives the way we fear ours. Let them stand on this side of the fence once. Just once. Then and only then should they be entitled to an opinion. R.I.P superwoman. You’re a fighter. Respect.

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: hey i resent that comment. why do u think i cannot empathize just cause i am a dude.

Lawful citizen: Ditto

Angry Young Lady: Empathy (n.) – Understanding what someone else is feeling because you have experienced it yourself or can put yourself in their shoes.

Enraged citizen: No, let’s not fight amongst each other. Please. Not tonight, alright?? Vengeful_Sympathetic_Male, all Angry_Young_Lady is trying to say is that there is a rape culture that is so pervasive, living a normal life has become impossible in this country if you are a woman. Imagine what it would feel like if you are always at war, that some unidentified person can just come and pick you up and take you away if you don’t keep your eyes open wide enough, phone in hand while walking in a empty locality, edge away from cars that slow down at footpaths. You guys, it’s become physically exhaustible and intolerable. And, yes, you can empathize, and I’m so glad you do, because we need every single ally we can all get, but the fact remains that a lot of men don’t want to see women raped, yet half of them still talk in terms of protecting a lady’s modesty instead of giving her her rights. All Angry_young_Lady is trying to say, in this moment of anger, is that men don’t understand why we want this so badly.

Specter M: We shouldn’t let go of the anger. Channel it. Get things done and fast. [But what is to be done? How is it to be done?] Her death shouldn’t be in vain. The shit has hit the fan you guys!!! The whole country should be in flames now. Another story goes into the archives. Another testimony to the apathy, the lack of courage. Another girl succumbed. Another ‘law’. Another (lost) ’cause’. Just another f***ing day …  What has the world come to? How did it get so messed up? What happened? Where did we go wrong? Who has the answers? Anyone? Anyone?

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: Angry Young Lady, i can imagine fear cause it is something everyone can feel, fear has nothing to do with ur gender . besides i am in no mood to get into an argument about that. i believe i can freely make any comment i fucking please cause i am only expressing my anger

Angry young Lady: You can sympathize all you want. But you will never be able to empathize with a rape survivor. You know why? Because you can never imagine yourself to be in her position. Not even in your wildest dreams. You can walk out on the road at anytime of the day or night, ask strangers for a lift when in need, wear whatever you wish, drink as much as you like and NOT FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE!

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: oh get off ur feminist horse and get with the program, this is a problem that we have to face as a society not just women

Angry Young Lady: You classify a woman expressing her anger against men as a feminist and in the same breath expect to “empathize” with one that has been raped? Hahaha. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not blaming you for anything or accusing you for any omissions. I’m simply saying that you cannot feel what a woman can feel with regard to this incident. And that’s a fact. Its like we can sympathize with a guy who gets kicked on his balls, but we can never really feel his pain. Bad analogy, but similar principle.

Enraged Citizen: I think she was responding more to Lawful_Citizen’s comment about hanging them than yours. Please, niggers, the British managed to separate the Hindus and Muslims, let’s not let our own government divide us into women and men. Seriously, it is not a Man vs Woman issue. Angry_young_lady, though I fully empathize with your anger, is it not true that women also hold this view? Our women scientists, our women ministers, aunties sitting at home, and women who frequently serve as accomplices to rapes; these women actually hold the view that in this World, a woman cannot own a vagina (Movie reference). The point is there is a fence, but it does not stand between men and women; it stands between those with a closed off mentality that are threatened by female sexuality, and those that welcome such a liberation. And, both men and women stand on both sides. VSM may not have had to fear for his own life or safety, but any man who belongs to this side of the fence has spent enough time dealing with these issues through his life. Let’s not alienate those who agree our rights are more important than just god-damned modesty. There are few enough of us as there are!

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: u tell her Enraged_Citizen, ……….hey i am on ur side of the issue, i just want to be able to voice my opinion too ,y should it matter if i have a penis……penis shmeenis we are all people here!!!

Enraged Citizen: Nice analogy, though. That does put things into perspective. And proves both your points, VSM and AYL! We can still empathize with men, and they can empathize with us, even if we can’t feel the same things or imagine what they feel like, and vice versa.

Angry young Lady: Its absolutely not a man v. woman issue. And I’m not making it out to be, either. My god. Vengeful_Sympathetic_Male, please calm down. And please just once read up the difference between empathy and sympathy. You cannot empathize with her, is all I’m saying. And that doesn’t make you bad or anything. Its just how the society is. Men almost don’t get raped at all. Period. Also, my comment wasn’t directed to you or your friend. My comment was directed to the men in the country who “need to learn a lesson”. You’re entitled to all the opinions in the world. Freedom of speech FTW!

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: also maybe i used the wrong word instead of empathy maybe i should have used the word compassion. sorry @nalini if my vocabulary fails me at times. see we were thinking the same thing

Angry Young Lady: And we’re angry at the same people.

Enraged citizen: ❤ … Yuck, these facebook hearts are damn gay. (no offense to homosexual individuals)

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: absolutely so who is up for slaughtering the fuckers not for justice or anythin but just cause we are angry. call me sadistic but i would like it very much

Angry young Lady: Enraged_Citizen, also a little inappropriate in a discussion where rapes, women’s rights, freedom of speech, deteriorating state of the country, fuckall politicians etc are being discussed, don’t you think?

Enraged Citizen: I applojjize. May I withdraw my statement? 😐

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: damn i gotta catch a flight to namma bengaluru, would totally love to stay and curse on them assholes for a while

Enraged citizen: S’okay. You have a safe flight, bruv. The Rage is Relentless. We’re not going anywhere.

Virtual Protester: Something urgently needs to be done to restore some sense of order? I have no idea what that is even supposed to mean. Seriously. I think it’s high time we get rid of that inner conflict within us between what’s idealist and what’s realistic. What is idealistic IS realistic. If you don’t live your life like that every day then be ready to make compromises all throughout your life. Please don’t take any of this seriously, but if it applies please do.

Enraged Citizen: And what is expected is not even idealistic… It is only realistic that the State provide you with security regardless of your gender, or the time..

Lawful Citizen: plz desist from quoting out of context…read comment in entirety & context in which it is made!

Enraged Citizen: And, when I say “provide you with security”, I mean a secure neighborhood and country, where crimes are the anomalies, not the norm. What we have now is rampant abuse of the law and an inefficient bureaucratic set-up that works for no one but those who are corrupt and apathetic.

Lawful citizen: I meant that there would be order through better provision for security of our citizens and prevalence of rule of law!

Virtual Protester: I thought that you were referring to the protesters. Either way, I still meant that. And fuck that, go buy yourself some tasers/knives/pepper spray from brigade road. I know a guy who knows a guy. Protect yourself till we figure out this rule of law thing.

Lawful Citizen: Try and redirect your anger or whatever it is towards the govt and police or whoever is responsible for safety of citizens!

Late Entrant Girl: Monsters! Monsters! Monsters!! Ugh. Burn in hell! And yes let’s go get us some knives and tasers. 😐

Horrified Citizen: its horrific thats all i can say

Voice of Reason: Things will get better. Do not lose hope. We’ve been living in a world far worse for far longer, it’s events like these which open our eyes, rip us out of our cocoons and make us realize that humanity is scum. Be mad, rage, talk, think, influence attitudes around you as much as you can. It is the miniscule, seemingly insignificant stuff which brings about change, when done over and over again.

Legally Bound: We all feel pain, We are all hurt, We are angry. It tells us that we are human. As a nation we have passed through a cathartic event, which didn’t show us something new it just opened our eyes to a reality that had been swept under the carpet. The brutality of her death, finally woke people up to the fact that in Independent India women are not thought of as full citizens. However, this is not the fault of India or the ideal of India or even the reality of India envisioned by the great men and women of her past. You are right that if we do not ensure that the Constitution and its basic rights are not available to all citizens of India, the Country will burn. It is inevitable. But i still say it is not the Country or its laws which are failing it is the people. We the people need to evolve and understand freedom and take steps and even sacrifice to change the minds of people who have themselves been oppressed for aeons. What happened to her showed us how far we have fallen. Let us use our pain and anger to create a better society where men and women are equals not only law but in practice. Maybe, i am idealistic but i do think that social change needs to begin inside us and burning people or things will certainly not change people’s minds. I am sure women don’t want to be feared. What sort of society is that.

Enraged Citizen: Women don’t care what it takes, Legally_Bound. And if that is what it takes, that is how it shall be. If there is any other way, of course we would prefer that. We all have “boyfriends” and “husbands”, to borrow the language of the day. heh.