Public Debate: What to do with the Rapers, and can men empathize with women?

Parties to this discussion:

Enraged Citizen: Final Year Law Student in the role of an enraged citizen of the Indian State.

Vengeful Sympathetic Male : Wants the strictest punishment for all rapists.

Angry College Girl: Men cannot empathize with women.

Lawful Citizen: Fears for safety, and is upset with the rampant abuse of law

Legally Bound: Believes the rule of law must prevail.

Virtual Protester: Bordering on Anarchy

(OP) Enraged Citizen: She said she wanted to live. I hate you All. I hate us All. I hope this country burns to the ground now. You can kill each other in the name of religion. Now fucking do it for her. And, Legally Bound, don’t talk to me about responsibility or rebuilding or fixing anything. As a nation, we don’t deserve to exist, you know that? Yes, it is spectacular that India has managed to exist as a democracy, the World’s largest democracy. The world’s largest farce, you mean. We should stop pretending. We don’t deserve any better. Fuck Joker, man, I wish I was Ra’s Al Ghul right now. You know why? Because there is no Batman, and she’s dead, and that 17 year old is dead, and a thousand more will be soon, and it’s all our fault.

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: see now u are talking my language …. get pissed off, get angry , there has to be blood

Enraged Citizen: And, Blood there shall be. I swear it.

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: shit keepin u up all night?

Enraged Citizen: I wouldn’t dare sleep now.

Lawful Citizen: I sincerely hope that justice is done and that now the highest possible punishment that is the death penalty be given to all the rapists involved! May her soul rest in peace and god give courage and peace to victim’s family members!

Vengeful Sympathetic Male:  death penalty is lenient i wanna do the hostel scene with the fuckers, shoud first sodomise them with a hot poker then give them the old pullin out the digits then comes the eye poking out etc etc. she lived for like 10 days after her experience they shouldnt die quick

  • Enraged Citizen: God’s a kid with an ant farm. If he couldn’t stop them from raping her, he sure as hell is not going to go about dispensing courage and peace. And, how can Justice be done? You tell me, Lawful_Citizen. What in the World can you possibly do in this case to ensure that justice is done? And, is there anything anyone can do to bring her back? And, what about her friend. he’s gonna be fucking traumatized for the rest of his life. And, can’t you see, it’s not just them that killed her?? People have been dying in such horrific ways for years, and if we had had the courage or the concern to start talking about these things a little earlier, maybe it wouldn’t haev even come to this.
  • So, you see, you and I killed her, Lawful_Citizen. What punishment do we deserve now?

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: i wanna go through the horrible experience of watching them get mutilated

Enraged Citizen: not even the most brutal torture can bring her back. Not the most painful punishment is gonna make her boyfriend or her family feel any better. Torturing them, that’s just selfish, and it’s more attention than they deserve. They should just be exiled to outer space. Or the Desert. They’re not even worth killing. And, they’re not the problem. God, I just can’t get over the fact that for 10 days, she’s been fighting this, and she told all of us that she wanted to live. And we couldn’t do anything.

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: we suck!!!!!

Lawful Citizen: Enraged Citizen, we cannot be fatalistic or philosophical about this whole deplorable incident and my point is that something urgently needs to be done to restore some sense of order and that something begins with punishing the perpetrators of this heinous act..I am not saying or implying that it would be adequate or that it would bring back the victim but it would be something close to justice, however far actually it might be from it…society needs to know that such heinous and sordid incidents will not be tolerated by us as a whole!

Angry Young Lady: Not until 6 men rape one man will the men in this country learn a lesson. Let them fear their lives the way we fear ours. Let them stand on this side of the fence once. Just once. Then and only then should they be entitled to an opinion. R.I.P superwoman. You’re a fighter. Respect.

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: hey i resent that comment. why do u think i cannot empathize just cause i am a dude.

Lawful citizen: Ditto

Angry Young Lady: Empathy (n.) – Understanding what someone else is feeling because you have experienced it yourself or can put yourself in their shoes.

Enraged citizen: No, let’s not fight amongst each other. Please. Not tonight, alright?? Vengeful_Sympathetic_Male, all Angry_Young_Lady is trying to say is that there is a rape culture that is so pervasive, living a normal life has become impossible in this country if you are a woman. Imagine what it would feel like if you are always at war, that some unidentified person can just come and pick you up and take you away if you don’t keep your eyes open wide enough, phone in hand while walking in a empty locality, edge away from cars that slow down at footpaths. You guys, it’s become physically exhaustible and intolerable. And, yes, you can empathize, and I’m so glad you do, because we need every single ally we can all get, but the fact remains that a lot of men don’t want to see women raped, yet half of them still talk in terms of protecting a lady’s modesty instead of giving her her rights. All Angry_young_Lady is trying to say, in this moment of anger, is that men don’t understand why we want this so badly.

Specter M: We shouldn’t let go of the anger. Channel it. Get things done and fast. [But what is to be done? How is it to be done?] Her death shouldn’t be in vain. The shit has hit the fan you guys!!! The whole country should be in flames now. Another story goes into the archives. Another testimony to the apathy, the lack of courage. Another girl succumbed. Another ‘law’. Another (lost) ’cause’. Just another f***ing day …  What has the world come to? How did it get so messed up? What happened? Where did we go wrong? Who has the answers? Anyone? Anyone?

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: Angry Young Lady, i can imagine fear cause it is something everyone can feel, fear has nothing to do with ur gender . besides i am in no mood to get into an argument about that. i believe i can freely make any comment i fucking please cause i am only expressing my anger

Angry young Lady: You can sympathize all you want. But you will never be able to empathize with a rape survivor. You know why? Because you can never imagine yourself to be in her position. Not even in your wildest dreams. You can walk out on the road at anytime of the day or night, ask strangers for a lift when in need, wear whatever you wish, drink as much as you like and NOT FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE!

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: oh get off ur feminist horse and get with the program, this is a problem that we have to face as a society not just women

Angry Young Lady: You classify a woman expressing her anger against men as a feminist and in the same breath expect to “empathize” with one that has been raped? Hahaha. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not blaming you for anything or accusing you for any omissions. I’m simply saying that you cannot feel what a woman can feel with regard to this incident. And that’s a fact. Its like we can sympathize with a guy who gets kicked on his balls, but we can never really feel his pain. Bad analogy, but similar principle.

Enraged Citizen: I think she was responding more to Lawful_Citizen’s comment about hanging them than yours. Please, niggers, the British managed to separate the Hindus and Muslims, let’s not let our own government divide us into women and men. Seriously, it is not a Man vs Woman issue. Angry_young_lady, though I fully empathize with your anger, is it not true that women also hold this view? Our women scientists, our women ministers, aunties sitting at home, and women who frequently serve as accomplices to rapes; these women actually hold the view that in this World, a woman cannot own a vagina (Movie reference). The point is there is a fence, but it does not stand between men and women; it stands between those with a closed off mentality that are threatened by female sexuality, and those that welcome such a liberation. And, both men and women stand on both sides. VSM may not have had to fear for his own life or safety, but any man who belongs to this side of the fence has spent enough time dealing with these issues through his life. Let’s not alienate those who agree our rights are more important than just god-damned modesty. There are few enough of us as there are!

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: u tell her Enraged_Citizen, ……….hey i am on ur side of the issue, i just want to be able to voice my opinion too ,y should it matter if i have a penis……penis shmeenis we are all people here!!!

Enraged Citizen: Nice analogy, though. That does put things into perspective. And proves both your points, VSM and AYL! We can still empathize with men, and they can empathize with us, even if we can’t feel the same things or imagine what they feel like, and vice versa.

Angry young Lady: Its absolutely not a man v. woman issue. And I’m not making it out to be, either. My god. Vengeful_Sympathetic_Male, please calm down. And please just once read up the difference between empathy and sympathy. You cannot empathize with her, is all I’m saying. And that doesn’t make you bad or anything. Its just how the society is. Men almost don’t get raped at all. Period. Also, my comment wasn’t directed to you or your friend. My comment was directed to the men in the country who “need to learn a lesson”. You’re entitled to all the opinions in the world. Freedom of speech FTW!

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: also maybe i used the wrong word instead of empathy maybe i should have used the word compassion. sorry @nalini if my vocabulary fails me at times. see we were thinking the same thing

Angry Young Lady: And we’re angry at the same people.

Enraged citizen: ❤ … Yuck, these facebook hearts are damn gay. (no offense to homosexual individuals)

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: absolutely so who is up for slaughtering the fuckers not for justice or anythin but just cause we are angry. call me sadistic but i would like it very much

Angry young Lady: Enraged_Citizen, also a little inappropriate in a discussion where rapes, women’s rights, freedom of speech, deteriorating state of the country, fuckall politicians etc are being discussed, don’t you think?

Enraged Citizen: I applojjize. May I withdraw my statement? 😐

Vengeful Sympathetic Male: damn i gotta catch a flight to namma bengaluru, would totally love to stay and curse on them assholes for a while

Enraged citizen: S’okay. You have a safe flight, bruv. The Rage is Relentless. We’re not going anywhere.

Virtual Protester: Something urgently needs to be done to restore some sense of order? I have no idea what that is even supposed to mean. Seriously. I think it’s high time we get rid of that inner conflict within us between what’s idealist and what’s realistic. What is idealistic IS realistic. If you don’t live your life like that every day then be ready to make compromises all throughout your life. Please don’t take any of this seriously, but if it applies please do.

Enraged Citizen: And what is expected is not even idealistic… It is only realistic that the State provide you with security regardless of your gender, or the time..

Lawful Citizen: plz desist from quoting out of context…read comment in entirety & context in which it is made!

Enraged Citizen: And, when I say “provide you with security”, I mean a secure neighborhood and country, where crimes are the anomalies, not the norm. What we have now is rampant abuse of the law and an inefficient bureaucratic set-up that works for no one but those who are corrupt and apathetic.

Lawful citizen: I meant that there would be order through better provision for security of our citizens and prevalence of rule of law!

Virtual Protester: I thought that you were referring to the protesters. Either way, I still meant that. And fuck that, go buy yourself some tasers/knives/pepper spray from brigade road. I know a guy who knows a guy. Protect yourself till we figure out this rule of law thing.

Lawful Citizen: Try and redirect your anger or whatever it is towards the govt and police or whoever is responsible for safety of citizens!

Late Entrant Girl: Monsters! Monsters! Monsters!! Ugh. Burn in hell! And yes let’s go get us some knives and tasers. 😐

Horrified Citizen: its horrific thats all i can say

Voice of Reason: Things will get better. Do not lose hope. We’ve been living in a world far worse for far longer, it’s events like these which open our eyes, rip us out of our cocoons and make us realize that humanity is scum. Be mad, rage, talk, think, influence attitudes around you as much as you can. It is the miniscule, seemingly insignificant stuff which brings about change, when done over and over again.

Legally Bound: We all feel pain, We are all hurt, We are angry. It tells us that we are human. As a nation we have passed through a cathartic event, which didn’t show us something new it just opened our eyes to a reality that had been swept under the carpet. The brutality of her death, finally woke people up to the fact that in Independent India women are not thought of as full citizens. However, this is not the fault of India or the ideal of India or even the reality of India envisioned by the great men and women of her past. You are right that if we do not ensure that the Constitution and its basic rights are not available to all citizens of India, the Country will burn. It is inevitable. But i still say it is not the Country or its laws which are failing it is the people. We the people need to evolve and understand freedom and take steps and even sacrifice to change the minds of people who have themselves been oppressed for aeons. What happened to her showed us how far we have fallen. Let us use our pain and anger to create a better society where men and women are equals not only law but in practice. Maybe, i am idealistic but i do think that social change needs to begin inside us and burning people or things will certainly not change people’s minds. I am sure women don’t want to be feared. What sort of society is that.

Enraged Citizen: Women don’t care what it takes, Legally_Bound. And if that is what it takes, that is how it shall be. If there is any other way, of course we would prefer that. We all have “boyfriends” and “husbands”, to borrow the language of the day. heh.

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